ScubaToys Diving Forum  

Forum Photo Gallery Get Your Scuba Toys Gear Here Scuba Classes & Diver Training Store Cam
Go Back   ScubaToys Diving Forum > Community > Tragedies, Accidents, Unfortunate Events, etc
Register FAQLive Chat Members List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Tragedies, Accidents, Unfortunate Events, etc Sometimes we learn from others misfortune

Welcome to the ScubaToys Diving Forum.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

Oh Wait!

Did I forget to tell you that as a board member you'll save 10 percent on ScubaToys Purchases... And for simply posting you can earn ScubaToys Gift Certificates!? Learn All About It!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-10-2007, 07:33 AM   #31
creggur
Grouper
Founding Member
 
creggur's Avatar

Forum Stats
 
Join Date: 07/10/2007
Posts: 722

Profile Info
 
Location:
Jax, Fl.
Age: 49
Dives Logged: 0-24
Referal Stats
Referals: 1
Their Posts: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by FyVe View Post
Respectable opinion, but i don't agree. i'm one of the people who believe that animals were here before us and we're really destroying some of nature's best things.
if everyone was a little more nature conscious i don't think there would be a NEED to develop any weapons because there wouldn't be anyone to FIGHT and maybe we could work TOGETHER for a change with everyone else in the world.
butttt due to human beings' individual capacity to differ from what's sensible or believable in religion or not, that will likely never happen.
Not trying to be antagonistic here, but it seems you are agreeing with me. My point is that because of human beings' inability to do whats always sensible there will always be enemies to deal with. History confirms this. There will alway be some power-hungry madman out there waiting for his turn in the spotlight. Since we don't always know who that will be or the level of arms that he might have, we must be prepared for as many contingencies as possible...JMHO
__________________
Scubatoys - My LDS From 1,075 mi Away!!
ZEAGLE Brigade/ZEAGLE Envoy Deluxe/ZEAGLE Octo-Z....Anybody seein' a pattern here???
creggur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2007, 10:42 PM   #32
Doug B
TadPole
Founding Member
 
Doug B's Avatar

Forum Stats
 
Join Date: 07/09/2007
Posts: 36

Profile Info
 
Location:
Indianapolis, Indiana
Dives Logged: 51-100
My Photos: 1 Images
[quote=awap;43372]
Quote:
Originally Posted by creggur;43245
Just because the current forces we are engaged with do not have a significant naval force doesn't mean we won't face one in the future. Should we not prepare for that scenario? Should we spend millions of dollars on systems for our soldiers and sailors to use and not train them to use them properly in combat situations? Your response seems filled with emotion, not rational reasoning. In the real world our next enemy could very well have a significant naval force that our men and women will have to deal with. If that means giving a few whales a headache, well so be it. I would rather have them prepared to do battle to the absolute best of their ability than worry about a whale being confused for a few minutes...[/QUOTE


The judge, in his decision, sited as part his reasoning the fact that we are at war in 2 countries. That was just handy BS.

Of course our forces need to train. And while the military will spend a fair amout of $$ to insure troop safety in training, they basically are not interested in "wasting" limited funding to provide any environmental safety unless forced to do so by outside influence. It's really mostly a matter of how important the potential negative impacts are perceived by the general public as to how much the military will bend to offset those adverse impacts. How often do you think the general public has to tolerate the loss or degeredation of civilian radio or TV signals so the military can include realistic communications jamming threats in their training? It is a matter of what is important and what isn't. and the loss of a few marine mammals is just not very important right now. If and when it becomes important, the military will spend a little more money to accomplish its training objective and avoid collateral environmental damage (and they will be funded to do that).
Actually, the general public (ie. commericial business,) is/was prohibited from using certain frequencies because of military communications.
__________________
Radio Control Airplanes, my other addiction: theprofilebrotherhood.com
Doug B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2007, 10:50 PM   #33
Doug B
TadPole
Founding Member
 
Doug B's Avatar

Forum Stats
 
Join Date: 07/09/2007
Posts: 36

Profile Info
 
Location:
Indianapolis, Indiana
Dives Logged: 51-100
My Photos: 1 Images
Quote:
Originally Posted by greyzen View Post
So the sonar is using computers... how hard is it to configure a mock battle using artificially instructed computer input?

Have a computer operator sitting back feeding information into the data stream for it to report back and have the captn's or whoever respond based on the artificial data?
Simulations have thier place.... agreed.

However, let's turn the tables a little. Instead of taking open water ( or cave diving, or whatever) training in the water, why not just simulate it in your living room. Then, make your first open water dive (or cave dive) in rough seas, at night, with a leaky mask, and a tiger shark interested in eating you. Shouldn't be any problems, you've trained for it sitting in a lazy boy.

Agreed, I'm over exaggerating, but just to make a counter-point. Simulations are good. Doing the real thing, in a "controlled" environment, is a whole lot better training.
__________________
Radio Control Airplanes, my other addiction: theprofilebrotherhood.com
Doug B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2007, 03:03 AM   #34
danielh03
Guppy
 
danielh03's Avatar

Forum Stats
 
Join Date: 08/10/2007
Posts: 91

Profile Info
 
Location:
Tennessee
Dives Logged: 0-24
Send a message via Yahoo to danielh03
Quote:
Originally Posted by medicdiver View Post
daniel,

How can you say that the military does not need mock battles or drills? How is it that we did so well in the initial push into Iraq? It was because of all the time spent at NTC. Without that training many lives would have been lost. The more you sweat in peace, the less you bleed in war.
How can I say that, out of context, yes, it seems like am saying we do not need them, but the exercise is a form of a mock battle. Setting infront of a computer for hours, thats what I am against.
__________________
When in doubt, empty your mag!

danielh03 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2007, 03:06 AM   #35
danielh03
Guppy
 
danielh03's Avatar

Forum Stats
 
Join Date: 08/10/2007
Posts: 91

Profile Info
 
Location:
Tennessee
Dives Logged: 0-24
Send a message via Yahoo to danielh03
Quote:
Originally Posted by awap View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by creggur View Post
I'm sure I'll be in the minority here on this, but I gotta agree with them on this. The military needs to train, and they need to train the way that they are going to fight. It would suck to be in a situation where you were up against an enemy submarine and the sonar guys weren't 100% on their gear or techniques..

You bet. We really should not underestimate the threats from the Madi and Taliban Navies.

And while we are at it, wouldn't our forces be more prepared if they trained with live tatical and statigic nuclear weapons?

If we are willing to sacrifice almost 4000 American military personnel, shouldn't we be willing to accept the unavoidable loss of a few ..... other animals?
Who are you calling an animal? Maybe I am taking this the wrong way, but i feel that you are saying the men and women in the military are animals to sacrifice? Its hard to pick up on tone while your reading it from a computer screen, but that, as it is writen, is uncalled for.
__________________
When in doubt, empty your mag!

danielh03 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2007, 03:36 PM   #36
IrishSquid
TadPole
 
IrishSquid's Avatar

Forum Stats
 
Join Date: 09/16/2007
Posts: 7

Profile Info
 
Location:
Chattanooga, Tn.
Dives Logged: 0-24
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielh03 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by awap View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by creggur View Post
I'm sure I'll be in the minority here on this, but I gotta agree with them on this. The military needs to train, and they need to train the way that they are going to fight. It would suck to be in a situation where you were up against an enemy submarine and the sonar guys weren't 100% on their gear or techniques..

You bet. We really should not underestimate the threats from the Madi and Taliban Navies.

And while we are at it, wouldn't our forces be more prepared if they trained with live tatical and statigic nuclear weapons?

If we are willing to sacrifice almost 4000 American military personnel, shouldn't we be willing to accept the unavoidable loss of a few ..... other animals?
Who are you calling an animal? Maybe I am taking this the wrong way, but i feel that you are saying the men and women in the military are animals to sacrifice? Its hard to pick up on tone while your reading it from a computer screen, but that, as it is writen, is uncalled for.
With you 100% on that Daniel!. Your statement by the way is another example of why computer simulations aren't perfect for training. The real world situations / nuances get lost in sterile computer interactions.
IrishSquid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2007, 03:55 PM   #37
IrishSquid
TadPole
 
IrishSquid's Avatar

Forum Stats
 
Join Date: 09/16/2007
Posts: 7

Profile Info
 
Location:
Chattanooga, Tn.
Dives Logged: 0-24
Quote:
Originally Posted by FyVe View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by creggur View Post
Works well in theory, and that is how the vast majority of Naval combat training is done. However, I can tell you from direct experience. The real thing and computer simulations are truly worlds apart.

The approval that the Navy got was for 11 planned exercises..11, that's it. So it's not like they're going to be out there 365 days a year with the sonar bangin' away. Heck most of the time the sonar is used in a passive "listening" mode anyway. The only time you use active sonar is for target verification before launching a weapon. And yes the guys do need practice doing this, in as real as a situation that can be provided. It's what will keep them and a lot of other people alive if the real thing ever happened to them..
Respectable opinion, but i don't agree. i'm one of the people who believe that animals were here before us and we're really destroying some of nature's best things.
if everyone was a little more nature conscious i don't think there would be a NEED to develop any weapons because there wouldn't be anyone to FIGHT and maybe we could work TOGETHER for a change with everyone else in the world.
butttt due to human beings' individual capacity to differ from what's sensible or believable in religion or not, that will likely never happen.
I don't want to sound antagonistic, but; if everyone on the planet was a greenie, tree hugger, veggie, pacifist, religious-take your pick, etc. (I don't mean these as derogatory descriptions), there will always be Khans, Alexanders, Ceasars, Stalins, Hitlers, Pol Pots, and so forth. You better be ready for those factors, because a loaf of whole wheat bread, tofu, granola, koalas, bunnies, spotted owls, snail darters, or what have you won't help. Also, just about everything you are acustomed to in your life came about due to the "destruction" of something natural, be it housing, food, energy, even knowledge. Again, I want to reinforce this not a flame in any way.
IrishSquid is offline   Reply With Quote

Go Back   ScubaToys Diving Forum > Community > Tragedies, Accidents, Unfortunate Events, etc

Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:35 PM.


Powered by vBulletin 3.6.72020
Copyright 2000-2007, ScubaToys Enterprises LLC